The travails of installing a printer.

Discussion:

(too old to reply)

Micky

2016-01-09 13:49:17 UTC

The travails of installing a printer.

Don't read if you don't like stories.

After all the discussion in the other thread, I figured I'd start to
try to install the printer, the Brother MFC6800.

Because I couldnt' get it close to the computer, I dug out my new
Active Extension, USB2.0 Repeater Cable, but then wondered, if it has
an amplifier built-in, is it bi-directional? I read the packaging but
it said nothing. I looked at some of the text that went with ads for
them, and the first said, Works with any USB device, but didnt' list
scanners. Later I found text that also said it worked with any USB
devide and listed printers and scanners, but didn't list
printer/scanners.

Finally I googled the cable name and "bidirectional" and got only one
hit, not in the description but in a question someone asked on Amazon
I think it was, where he was finally told that was NOT bi-d. Another
guy commented, "I wish I'd known this before I snaked it through my
walls and attic." It's sort of amazing how hard they made it to
find this out.

So I figured I'd buy a longer USB A/B cable, and I googled and several
places had 16' for only 6 or 7 dollars, but they all wanted 3 to 5
days. Except Staples, which had one in stock at each of 3 nearby
stores. Interstingly, Microcenter, which has a store fairly nearby,
which has been quite cheap on several things wanted iirc $26 for their
cheapest 16 foot, and almost that much for 5 foot!! I guess like a
lot of places, they're cheap on some things and way high on others.

7) But then I thought, I should make sure the printer uses a USB-B
port, so for some reason I looked in the manual and not on the
printer. Well, apparently, it only works with USB if you have a
Macintosh, not a PC!!! At least there are no instructions for the PC
like it has fof Macinstosh. Have you ever heard of this before???

And even for that it says the cable can't be more than 6 feet long. In
that case I have no place to put the printer, unless I use a parallel
cable, except that the Dell Vostro 220 has no parallel port. Now
somewhere I have parallel port card, a recent one, but I still don't
remember what interface it has, nor do I know what empty slots I have
on this computer. Plus I'm supposed to be getting out of Vista/2Gigs
and moving to XP/4Gigs or 7/4Gigs, so it would be a waste to fix up
this computer.

But wait! I planned for this and bought a print server a while back.
Let me go get it. Well, it's software stops at XP also. Good thing
I only paid $7 for it, and nothing for the printer. LOL

I will fix up an XP computer with a parallel port and use it that way.
Who knows, she said it worked but it may be broken!

Paul

2016-01-09 14:36:13 UTC

Permalink

Of course it is.

This is an "active repeater" cable.

End-that-plugs-to-computer ---- 5 meters of cable ---- one-port-USB-hub --x

The 5 meters of cable has D+ and D- wires, and a protocol
is in place to control what happens on the wires. Just
like it is for any other host-peripheral thing on USB.

The "One Port Hub" regenerates the data and acts as if you
have bought a 4 port hub and blocked three of the ports
with epoxy.

There is a limit to how many active repeater cables you
can string in series. There is an "end to end delay limit"
for USB. On newer computers, you can use four cables,
on older computers the limit is five cables. The difference,
is newer Intel chipsets use hub technology within the
Southbridge, which "eats up" one of the cables in
your limit. I own three cables, and have successfully
run a webcam on the end of three cables, without
resorting to providing additional power
at the business end of the cable.

*******

The next item, is how do you make a Parallel Port.

1) On the SuperI/O chip. Supports all four modes. Unidirectional
and bidirectional modes. Fully functional. Capable of running
that JTAG converter cable you bought.

2) As a PCI card, with PCI to Parallel Port. Functions same
as (1), with occasional issues on bus addresses and so on.
They even make PCI Express x1 chips for this.

3) USB to parallel port. Now, this is the less-functional
solution. Microsoft class standards parallel port driver
only support one of four modes. So the parallel port is not
fully functional. It is a "printer parallel port", not a
"four function parallel port". Due to the missing protocol
support, only one of the modes of operation is supported.

This is an example of some of the operating modes
of a real parallel port. Something in this list
corresponds to SPP.

http://retired.beyondlogic.org/spp/parallel.htm

1. Compatibility Mode.
2. Nibble Mode. (Protocol not Described in this Document)
3. Byte Mode. (Protocol not Described in this Document)
4. EPP Mode (Enhanced Parallel Port).
5. ECP Mode (Extended Capabilities Mode).

So one of those modes, is used exclusively by a USB to
parallel port dongle.

If you want a fully functional parallel port, try this.
I have one of these in the machine I'm typing this on.
Shop around for best price. I got this for $30 or $35
at the time I bought it.

PEX1PLP
http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Parallel/1-Port-PCI-Express-Low-Profile-Parallel-Adapter-Card-SPP-EPP-ECP~PEX1PLP

Paul

Micky

2016-01-10 22:09:58 UTC

Permalink

Post by Paul

Of course it is.

Any chance you're thinking of USB3 active cables. I've found a
couple descriptions of them being bidirectional.

http://www.vision-systems.com/articles/print/volume-16/issue-9a/features/active-cables-lengthen-camera-to-computer-connectivity.html
"Bidirectional interfaces

For bidirectional interfaces, such as USB and Apple's latest
Thunderbolt interface, equalizers are typically found on both sides of
the cable. To extend the reach of USB cables using equalization
techniques, Icron Technologies and Intersil have jointly developed a
USB 3.0 cable that delivers 5 Gbits/s of throughput over 20 m (see
Fig. 2)."

I only have one bulge on my cables, at one end. Monoprice might have
sold those with two, or usb3, but if so, they were more expensive and
at the time nothing I read talked about bidirectionality and the
question didnt' occur to me. And none of the uses I bought the
cables for, webcam, remote control keyboard and mouse, require
bidirectionality. Only a printer that feeds back information about
ink levels or malfunctions, or a printer/scanner.

Micky

PS. I came across still another website parroting Usenet.
http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1094932
I noticed the thread name, which is the name of this thread.

Someday I hope those readers learn how to access Usenet properly.
They'll get more out of it.

Post by Paul
This is an "active repeater" cable.
End-that-plugs-to-computer ---- 5 meters of cable ---- one-port-USB-hub --x
The 5 meters of cable has D+ and D- wires, and a protocol
is in place to control what happens on the wires. Just
like it is for any other host-peripheral thing on USB.
The "One Port Hub" regenerates the data and acts as if you
have bought a 4 port hub and blocked three of the ports
with epoxy.
There is a limit to how many active repeater cables you
can string in series. There is an "end to end delay limit"
for USB. On newer computers, you can use four cables,
on older computers the limit is five cables. The difference,
is newer Intel chipsets use hub technology within the
Southbridge, which "eats up" one of the cables in
your limit. I own three cables, and have successfully
run a webcam on the end of three cables, without
resorting to providing additional power
at the business end of the cable.
*******
The next item, is how do you make a Parallel Port.
1) On the SuperI/O chip. Supports all four modes. Unidirectional
and bidirectional modes. Fully functional. Capable of running
that JTAG converter cable you bought.
2) As a PCI card, with PCI to Parallel Port. Functions same
as (1), with occasional issues on bus addresses and so on.
They even make PCI Express x1 chips for this.
3) USB to parallel port. Now, this is the less-functional
solution. Microsoft class standards parallel port driver
only support one of four modes. So the parallel port is not
fully functional. It is a "printer parallel port", not a
"four function parallel port". Due to the missing protocol
support, only one of the modes of operation is supported.
This is an example of some of the operating modes
of a real parallel port. Something in this list
corresponds to SPP.
http://retired.beyondlogic.org/spp/parallel.htm
1. Compatibility Mode.
2. Nibble Mode. (Protocol not Described in this Document)
3. Byte Mode. (Protocol not Described in this Document)
4. EPP Mode (Enhanced Parallel Port).
5. ECP Mode (Extended Capabilities Mode).
So one of those modes, is used exclusively by a USB to
parallel port dongle.
If you want a fully functional parallel port, try this.
I have one of these in the machine I'm typing this on.
Shop around for best price. I got this for $30 or $35
at the time I bought it.
PEX1PLP
http://www.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Parallel/1-Port-PCI-Express-Low-Profile-Parallel-Adapter-Card-SPP-EPP-ECP~PEX1PLP
Paul

Paul

2016-01-10 22:41:13 UTC

Permalink

Post by Micky
Any chance you're thinking of USB3 active cables. I've found a
couple descriptions of them being bidirectional.
http://www.vision-systems.com/articles/print/volume-16/issue-9a/features/active-cables-lengthen-camera-to-computer-connectivity.html
"Bidirectional interfaces
For bidirectional interfaces, such as USB and Apple's latest
Thunderbolt interface, equalizers are typically found on both sides of
the cable. To extend the reach of USB cables using equalization
techniques, Icron Technologies and Intersil have jointly developed a
USB 3.0 cable that delivers 5 Gbits/s of throughput over 20 m (see
Fig. 2)."
I only have one bulge on my cables, at one end. Monoprice might have
sold those with two, or usb3, but if so, they were more expensive and
at the time nothing I read talked about bidirectionality and the
question didnt' occur to me. And none of the uses I bought the
cables for, webcam, remote control keyboard and mouse, require
bidirectionality. Only a printer that feeds back information about
ink levels or malfunctions, or a printer/scanner.
Micky
PS. I came across still another website parroting Usenet.
http://www.pcbanter.net/showthread.php?t=1094932
I noticed the thread name, which is the name of this thread.
Someday I hope those readers learn how to access Usenet properly.
They'll get more out of it.

Actually, when I wrote my reply, I was thinking of my
three USB2 active repeater cables.

USB3 protocol is similar to SATA or PCI Express.
It uses TX+, TX- for differential transmission.
It uses RX+, RX- for differential reception.
It supports full duplex (unlike USB2).

On a USB3 connector, there are nine pins.
Four pins are legacy USB2.
Five pins are USB3. TX+, TX-, Ground, RX+, RX-
Out of laziness, only one set of pins is
used at any one time (auto-negotiated).

OK, so what can you do with those ?

The reach is limited with no equalizer. I don't
even know right off hand, what the recommended
passive cable length is for USB3.

You can use automatic line buildout to try to
compensate for cable length. There are limits
as to how far you can go, before you run out
of signal budget.

Compare SATA and SAS for a moment. Both are
differential, both are serial, and use a
minimum of signal wires. The same
TX+, TX-, RX+, RX- for the full duplex
signals. However, SAS uses a more
sophisticated line treatment, to extend
the reach and support both short and
extra long cables. This requires a good
deal of skill on the part of the
(microwave) designer hired to make
that chip interface work. I think SAS
only has a couple of settings for expected
line length, so they didn't go overboard
on the equalizer.

Could they do it on USB3 ? Sure.
Is the behavior at both ends of an augmented
line specified in a standard ? That would help.

Maybe something more fancy was done for USB3.1,
and that is trickling down to make augmented
USB3 devices ? Dunno. Sooner or later,
as the rates go up, an equalizer might be
required to make this crap work.

There are all manner of abominations on
the market, supporting non-standard
lengths. But I don't promote them,
because there is no way to know if
they're "a good deal or not". Should
I send every user out to spend $100 on
an item like that, only to discover
it has a measurable line error rate ?
That probably wouldn't make me very
popular. So when I shop for something
for you, I tend to select any item
which uses the "standards approved"
length. If I can figure out what that is.

*******

When I started out in electronics, my co-workers
were already doing equalizers for some of the
hardware we were building. That's when I first
heard about them. I've never had to build
anything nasty like that myself. That
takes skillz.

Paul

Micky

2016-01-11 08:00:29 UTC

Permalink

Post by Paul

Actually, when I wrote my reply, I was thinking of my
three USB2 active repeater cables.

I was hoping to post again before you did, to contradict (or at least
weaken, he said, having a hard time admitting he was wrong) what I
said.

Since I last posted, I replaced my new 16' A/B usb cable with a 10'
cable I'd forgotten I had. (If I'd remembered, I wouldnt' have to go
shopping yesterday.) And it didnt' print any better.

I also found a 7' A/B cable I'd forgotten I had, but it's not long
enough to connect without moving the printer.

So I went to the active usb cable (that I'd never used before) and it
didn't work any better! But, and this is a big but, then I went to
the printer and scanned something. And that did show up in the
computer, even though it means going the other direction.

So only my pride keeps me from saying that you're right.

But why don't they make this clear on the packaging? Didn't the
question occur to them? How many amplifiers work in both directions?
No other that I know of. And what about the guy on Amazon who asked
and the other one who regretted snaking the cable through his walls
and ceiling. (Well, he should have tested it before he did that. He
might have had a bad cable.)

Anyhow, scanning "worked" but the image was totally black, just like I
get when I copy something with this, but not when I print an internal
report. I have to take it apart and jiggle the connector at the
scanner, and I suppose at the other end of the scanner cable to if I
can find it. So that's one problem.

And it doesn't print. Problem two. Not looking good. Maybe I
should just buy a cheap wireless black and white laser printer and use
the inkject all in one for scanning and faxing. It works fine.

Post by Paul
USB3 protocol is similar to SATA or PCI Express.
It uses TX+, TX- for differential transmission.
It uses RX+, RX- for differential reception.
It supports full duplex (unlike USB2).

What!! Now you're saying USB2 doesn't support full duplex? You mean
both directions at the same time. Oh, that's okay.

Post by Paul
On a USB3 connector, there are nine pins.
Four pins are legacy USB2.
Five pins are USB3. TX+, TX-, Ground, RX+, RX-
Out of laziness, only one set of pins is
used at any one time (auto-negotiated).
OK, so what can you do with those ?
The reach is limited with no equalizer. I don't
even know right off hand, what the recommended
passive cable length is for USB3.
You can use automatic line buildout to try to
compensate for cable length. There are limits
as to how far you can go, before you run out
of signal budget.
Compare SATA and SAS for a moment. Both are
differential, both are serial, and use a
minimum of signal wires. The same
TX+, TX-, RX+, RX- for the full duplex
signals. However, SAS uses a more
sophisticated line treatment, to extend
the reach and support both short and
extra long cables. This requires a good
deal of skill on the part of the
(microwave) designer hired to make
that chip interface work. I think SAS
only has a couple of settings for expected
line length, so they didn't go overboard
on the equalizer.
Could they do it on USB3 ? Sure.
Is the behavior at both ends of an augmented
line specified in a standard ? That would help.
Maybe something more fancy was done for USB3.1,
and that is trickling down to make augmented
USB3 devices ? Dunno. Sooner or later,
as the rates go up, an equalizer might be
required to make this crap work.
There are all manner of abominations on
the market, supporting non-standard
lengths. But I don't promote them,
because there is no way to know if
they're "a good deal or not". Should
I send every user out to spend $100 on
an item like that, only to discover
it has a measurable line error rate ?
That probably wouldn't make me very
popular. So when I shop for something
for you, I tend to select any item
which uses the "standards approved"
length. If I can figure out what that is.
*******
When I started out in electronics, my co-workers
were already doing equalizers for some of the
hardware we were building. That's when I first
heard about them. I've never had to build
anything nasty like that myself. That
takes skillz.
Paul

Wolf K

2016-01-09 15:27:13 UTC

Permalink

On 2016-01-09 08:49, Micky wrote:
[...]

Post by Micky
I will fix up an XP computer with a parallel port and use it that way.
Who knows, she said it worked but it may be broken!

The printer has a parallel port? That's archeological! :-)

It's fun to make old technology work. Good luck.

--
Best,
Wolf K
kirkwood40.blogspot.ca

Big Al

2016-01-09 18:14:31 UTC

Permalink

Post by Micky
The travails of installing a printer.
Don't read if you don't like stories.
After all the discussion in the other thread, I figured I'd start to
try to install the printer, the Brother MFC6800.
Because I couldnt' get it close to the computer, I dug out my new
Active Extension, USB2.0 Repeater Cable, but then wondered, if it has
an amplifier built-in, is it bi-directional? I read the packaging but
it said nothing. I looked at some of the text that went with ads for
them, and the first said, Works with any USB device, but didnt' list
scanners. Later I found text that also said it worked with any USB
devide and listed printers and scanners, but didn't list
printer/scanners.
Finally I googled the cable name and "bidirectional" and got only one
hit, not in the description but in a question someone asked on Amazon
I think it was, where he was finally told that was NOT bi-d. Another
guy commented, "I wish I'd known this before I snaked it through my
walls and attic." It's sort of amazing how hard they made it to
find this out.
So I figured I'd buy a longer USB A/B cable, and I googled and several
places had 16' for only 6 or 7 dollars, but they all wanted 3 to 5
days. Except Staples, which had one in stock at each of 3 nearby
stores. Interstingly, Microcenter, which has a store fairly nearby,
which has been quite cheap on several things wanted iirc $26 for their
cheapest 16 foot, and almost that much for 5 foot!! I guess like a
lot of places, they're cheap on some things and way high on others.
7) But then I thought, I should make sure the printer uses a USB-B
port, so for some reason I looked in the manual and not on the
printer. Well, apparently, it only works with USB if you have a
Macintosh, not a PC!!! At least there are no instructions for the PC
like it has fof Macinstosh. Have you ever heard of this before???
And even for that it says the cable can't be more than 6 feet long. In
that case I have no place to put the printer, unless I use a parallel
cable, except that the Dell Vostro 220 has no parallel port. Now
somewhere I have parallel port card, a recent one, but I still don't
remember what interface it has, nor do I know what empty slots I have
on this computer. Plus I'm supposed to be getting out of Vista/2Gigs
and moving to XP/4Gigs or 7/4Gigs, so it would be a waste to fix up
this computer.
But wait! I planned for this and bought a print server a while back.
Let me go get it. Well, it's software stops at XP also. Good thing
I only paid $7 for it, and nothing for the printer. LOL
I will fix up an XP computer with a parallel port and use it that way.
Who knows, she said it worked but it may be broken!

The quick start PDF I looked at seemed to have directions for hooking up
to USB.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi-9bqZqp3KAhVIeD4KHSxCBgcQFgghMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.brother-usa.com%2FVirData%2FContent%2Fen-US%255CMFC%255CConsumer%255CQuickSetupGuide%255CQSG_MFC_6800_EN_1275.PDF&usg=AFQjCNF63GNsEdw9RX-r4ktO4yWhzjh1aA
But the manual did not have PC setup (or I missed it).
Did you just try and plug it in right next to your PC and see what
happens? USB is so, oh so standard.
I did notice the CD does not seem to have drivers over ME/2000 OS. So
I'd think just plug it in. I'd take a stab with it 2 feet from the PC
before thinking of any long extension cords etc.

Micky

2016-01-09 20:17:47 UTC

Permalink

Post by Big Al

It certainly does. Thank you very much.

Post by Big Al
But the manual did not have PC setup (or I missed it).

Now think it didn't have the PC setup. Strange.

Post by Big Al
Did you just try and plug it in right next to your PC and see what
happens? USB is so, oh so standard.

I was going to go to Staples to get the cable but decided not too.
Okay I went to staples. They have a different price for online/pickup
at store and but-at-store. I was up all night again and now I need
a nap. :-)

Post by Big Al
I did notice the CD does not seem to have drivers over ME/2000 OS. So
I'd think just plug it in. I'd take a stab with it 2 feet from the PC
before thinking of any long extension cords etc.

I'm always an optimist so I'll compromise with you. There's no place
to put it within 2 feet so I'll buy the longer cable and if it doesn't
work, I'll look for the the shorter one, or I'll use the amplified
cable which should work for the printer in one direction and the
scanner in the other. Good enough for testing.

Mike Easter

2016-01-09 19:09:28 UTC

Permalink

Post by Micky
Brother MFC6800.
Because I couldnt' get it close to the computer,

That discontinued printer/scanner/fax was released and marketed for
Win95-XP and Mac 8.5-10 with not all functions available to all those OS.

Its connectivity is by USB or parallel port, but it was parallel only
for W95 and USB only for the Macs, and wouldn't scan for the Mac 10.

Since the driver availability isn't 'clear' for the potential OS Vista,
my initial testing would not be 'distant', but instead I would
temporarily position the printer/computer adjacent to each other, even
if that weren't my longer range objective, to satisfy the question of
whether I had ANY driver problems .

Since the other thread indicated that the target machine was a Vista OS
Vostro 220 with USB but not parallel, then the trial hookup would be
normal range USB. Adjacent, I would see if I had all functions; if
necessary, I might choose to try to use the XP-provided software for
something. Likely the Vista MS ware will recognize the printer.

--
Mike Easter