Interesting uninstall problem with old software

Post by Ken Springer
Never had *this* happen before...
Vista Ultimate Service Pack 2 system, most definitely 32 bit.
I've got an old piece of software installed that required running in XP
SP2 mode when installed under Windows 7. I installed it here just to
help my brother-in-law with the program, I never used it.
The installation included a program written, apparently, in Dbase, and
the installation also installed a Dbase runtime engine.
When trying to uninstall both, I got the message the program can only be
uninstalled on 64 bit windows.
Repeated efforts finally got the Dbase runtime engine uninstalled, but
no luck with the program itself.
Any brilliant ideas about how to get around this?

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Ken Springer

2015-03-20 16:24:38 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Stormin' Norman

2015-03-20 16:41:19 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Ken Springer

2015-03-20 16:56:08 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Above my pay grade at the moment. LOL This part of computing never
interested me. I like finding out what I can do with them far more than
troubleshooting. <G>

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Stormin' Norman

2015-03-20 17:05:41 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Above my pay grade at the moment. LOL This part of computing never
interested me. I like finding out what I can do with them far more than
troubleshooting. <G>

Congratulations, you have received a field promotion to E-2.

See this:

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/open-event-viewer#1TC=windows-vista

After you open the event viewer, go to applications, scroll through the list
looking for errors (denoted with a red mark). You can open them with a double
click, when you find the applicable error, on the right side of the screen, you
should see "copy", click that and paste it into a reply.

Seriously, having the exact error message is invaluable in assisting you with
your issue.

Ken Springer

2015-03-21 00:58:28 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Above my pay grade at the moment. LOL This part of computing never
interested me. I like finding out what I can do with them far more than
troubleshooting. <G>

Congratulations, you have received a field promotion to E-2.

Geez, I did better than that in real life!! E-5 in just 2.5 years.
Petty Officer 2nd Class, USN.

Post by Stormin' Norman
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/open-event-viewer#1TC=windows-vista
After you open the event viewer, go to applications, scroll through the list
looking for errors (denoted with a red mark). You can open them with a double
click, when you find the applicable error, on the right side of the screen, you
should see "copy", click that and paste it into a reply.

Well, here's a lot of stuff I know nothing about. LOL

Aren't we assuming there *is* an actual error where something didn't
work right? What if there's a bug in the uninstall code, where the
uninstall routine actually ran perfectly, but gave me the wrong result?
How would Windows know this?

How do I know which program generated an error?

Post by Stormin' Norman
Seriously, having the exact error message is invaluable in assisting you with
your issue.

In poking around amongst things I know nothing about, I did find a lot
of errors where what I assume is the error message says this or that
failed for some reason. This OS was installed simply for a learning
experience, I'd already switched to OS X when my XP machine died a
horrible death. So I never used Vista for any day to day projects, just
installed and uninstalled software to learn something.

Knowing the number of errors, perhaps the smart thing would be to just
reinstall Vista. Which doesn't bother me, since as a hobby sort of,
when I've collected the parts and pieces to give me a complete and legal
system, I'll redo everything from scratch, and then donate it to a local
social agency so it can be given to someone that needs but can't afford
a computer. Complete with open source software so it's actually usable.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Stormin' Norman

2015-03-21 01:27:51 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Above my pay grade at the moment. LOL This part of computing never
interested me. I like finding out what I can do with them far more than
troubleshooting. <G>

Congratulations, you have received a field promotion to E-2.

Geez, I did better than that in real life!! E-5 in just 2.5 years.
Petty Officer 2nd Class, USN.

O-6, USMC ret. The conclusions you have drawn are rather drastic, but if you
don't feel comfortable posting the specific error relating to the problem you
were trying to resolve, I will just let it drop.

Good luck.

Ken Springer

2015-03-21 01:47:10 UTC

Have you tried the Microsoft "Fixit" available for this issue?
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/mats/program_install_and_uninstall

Won't work. :-( The fixit only applies to versions of Visual Studio.

Can you access the operating system's application log and post the exact error
that was generated?

Above my pay grade at the moment. LOL This part of computing never
interested me. I like finding out what I can do with them far more than
troubleshooting. <G>

Congratulations, you have received a field promotion to E-2.

Geez, I did better than that in real life!! E-5 in just 2.5 years.
Petty Officer 2nd Class, USN.

I'm not uncomfortable posting the specific error, I don't know how to
identify it. LOL

But I do know how unprotected the system was, simply due to my
ignorance. So it's a perfectly logical option that a reinstallation
would end up being the easiest of the options.

I'm more than willing to try any suggestions you have, but I'm starting
from a point of zero knowledge in this area.

Post by Stormin' Norman
Good luck.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

VanguardLH

2015-03-20 20:57:24 UTC

When attempting uninstall, are you logged under an admin-level Windows
account (i.e., it is in the Administrators account group)? Have you
tried logging into the Administrator account to uninstall?

So did you have to use compatibility mode to install the program or only
to run it after install? If the latter, maybe you still have
compatibility mode set on the shortcut or the file it loads.

I ran into the opposite problem the other day. I had uninstalled
OneDrive and then planned to follow with a reinstall. I was having
problems that a reinstall might fix. The OneDrive web page lists
Windows 7/8 as supported and not earlier versions of Windows. When I
tried to install, I got "OneDrive couldn't be installed" with an error
code. I started researching and found someone tried right-clicking on
the installer in Windows Explorer to select the "Troubleshoot
compatibility" entry. It loads the executable (the installer) but
doesn't let it do anything and when done checking then it suggested I
run it under Windows XP SP2 compatibility mode. What!? OneDrive isn't
supposed to run under XP. Went ahead and set XP SP2 compatibility on
the installer's .exe and now it is installed. Go figure.

I'm using Windows 7 (one of the newsgroups to which you cross-posted)
and it has the context menu troubleshooter wizard. I don't know if it
is available in Vista. I got off Vista as soon as I could. The MS
article https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/927386 mentions how to
use the compatibility troubleshooter under Vista.

Sometimes an install adds shortcut in the folder it adds to the Start
menu that runs the uninstall. You could try setting compatibility on
that shortcut or on the file to which it points.

In the past, there were times when the only way I could uninstall a
program was to install it and then do the uninstall. Nowadays I usually
do the registry and file cleanup myself (after saving a backup).

Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program). Instead of you trying to dig through the registry to
eradicate the remnant entries for the program and then delete the files,
you could see if they have hardcoded experience in their database to do
that for you. I don't know if they only know how to remove what the
program's uninstaller knows on how to uninstall or if they include more
items to do the remnant registry and file cleanup since most
uninstallers often do not remove everything, especially since many
registry changes or file creates may occur for the program after the
installer has finished (it can only record what it did, not what the
program or Windows did afterward).

Ken Springer

2015-03-21 18:19:46 UTC

When attempting uninstall, are you logged under an admin-level Windows
account (i.e., it is in the Administrators account group)? Have you
tried logging into the Administrator account to uninstall?

Yep. I'm the only user of my computers, and my accounts are admin
accounts. I didn't take the time to try the Super-Admin account from
Safe Mode. I also didn't try Run as Administrator either.

Account groups and permissions is something I've never delved into much,
since I moved to Mac when my XP system totally took a dive.

Post by VanguardLH
So did you have to use compatibility mode to install the program or only
to run it after install? If the latter, maybe you still have
compatibility mode set on the shortcut or the file it loads.

No. My brother-in-law runs Win 7, and I had no running Windows
computers when we installed it on his system, 3-4 years ago. It wasn't
until he called saying things wouldn't work, and I did some research,
that I discovered the compatibility mode requirement. Once we set the
compatibility mode, a lot of problems disappeared related to this aspect
now worked.

Eventually, I had Vista installed on the now homegrown XP box, and
installed the program there just to help him find out how to do this,
that, and the other. I never actually ran it for any other purpose.
But I did find a lot of buggy things in it.

Post by VanguardLH
I ran into the opposite problem the other day. I had uninstalled
OneDrive and then planned to follow with a reinstall. I was having
problems that a reinstall might fix. The OneDrive web page lists
Windows 7/8 as supported and not earlier versions of Windows. When I
tried to install, I got "OneDrive couldn't be installed" with an error
code. I started researching and found someone tried right-clicking on
the installer in Windows Explorer to select the "Troubleshoot
compatibility" entry. It loads the executable (the installer) but
doesn't let it do anything and when done checking then it suggested I
run it under Windows XP SP2 compatibility mode. What!? OneDrive isn't
supposed to run under XP. Went ahead and set XP SP2 compatibility on
the installer's .exe and now it is installed. Go figure.

Sadly, you just can't have 100% faith in anyone's documentation any
more, even if there is documentation. :-(

Post by VanguardLH
I'm using Windows 7 (one of the newsgroups to which you cross-posted)
and it has the context menu troubleshooter wizard. I don't know if it
is available in Vista. I got off Vista as soon as I could. The MS
article https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/927386 mentions how to
use the compatibility troubleshooter under Vista.

I might take a look at this if I have the time. (Got to go to work the
next 3 days.)

Post by VanguardLH
Sometimes an install adds shortcut in the folder it adds to the Start
menu that runs the uninstall. You could try setting compatibility on
that shortcut or on the file to which it points.

Something else to try.

Post by VanguardLH
In the past, there were times when the only way I could uninstall a
program was to install it and then do the uninstall. Nowadays I usually
do the registry and file cleanup myself (after saving a backup).

That's a good idea. If I can find the program here, I might try this.
The only place I think you can find the program now is on C/Net, and I'd
rather not get it from there.

Post by VanguardLH
Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program). Instead of you trying to dig through the registry to
eradicate the remnant entries for the program and then delete the files,
you could see if they have hardcoded experience in their database to do
that for you. I don't know if they only know how to remove what the
program's uninstaller knows on how to uninstall or if they include more
items to do the remnant registry and file cleanup since most
uninstallers often do not remove everything, especially since many
registry changes or file creates may occur for the program after the
installer has finished (it can only record what it did, not what the
program or Windows did afterward).

As I mentioned to Stormin' Norman, I'm certainly not adverse to
reinstalling Vista, since it' just a learning box for me, I use it for
nothing.

And the learning has been surprising of late. I'm doing a Vista
Business machine for donation, and mine is Vista Ultimate. I remember
when Vista came out, people didn't like the fact the power button icon
in the Start Menu would only put the system to a low power state, it
didn't actually power off. This is exactly what the Vista Business
system does. But my Ultimate system actually powers down when the power
button icon is clicked.

Hope this all made sense, got to get on the road so no proof reading.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

pjp

2015-03-21 22:19:04 UTC

In article <mekcn5$v9c$***@news.albasani.net>, ***@greeleynet.com
says...

When attempting uninstall, are you logged under an admin-level Windows
account (i.e., it is in the Administrators account group)? Have you
tried logging into the Administrator account to uninstall?

Yep. I'm the only user of my computers, and my accounts are admin
accounts. I didn't take the time to try the Super-Admin account from
Safe Mode. I also didn't try Run as Administrator either.
Account groups and permissions is something I've never delved into much,
since I moved to Mac when my XP system totally took a dive.

No. My brother-in-law runs Win 7, and I had no running Windows
computers when we installed it on his system, 3-4 years ago. It wasn't
until he called saying things wouldn't work, and I did some research,
that I discovered the compatibility mode requirement. Once we set the
compatibility mode, a lot of problems disappeared related to this aspect
now worked.
Eventually, I had Vista installed on the now homegrown XP box, and
installed the program there just to help him find out how to do this,
that, and the other. I never actually ran it for any other purpose.
But I did find a lot of buggy things in it.

The power off or save is an option you can set.

Ken Springer

2015-03-22 04:45:51 UTC

Post by pjp
says...

When attempting uninstall, are you logged under an admin-level Windows
account (i.e., it is in the Administrators account group)? Have you
tried logging into the Administrator account to uninstall?

Yep. I'm the only user of my computers, and my accounts are admin
accounts. I didn't take the time to try the Super-Admin account from
Safe Mode. I also didn't try Run as Administrator either.
Account groups and permissions is something I've never delved into much,
since I moved to Mac when my XP system totally took a dive.

No. My brother-in-law runs Win 7, and I had no running Windows
computers when we installed it on his system, 3-4 years ago. It wasn't
until he called saying things wouldn't work, and I did some research,
that I discovered the compatibility mode requirement. Once we set the
compatibility mode, a lot of problems disappeared related to this aspect
now worked.
Eventually, I had Vista installed on the now homegrown XP box, and
installed the program there just to help him find out how to do this,
that, and the other. I never actually ran it for any other purpose.
But I did find a lot of buggy things in it.

The power off or save is an option you can set.

I was surprised the defaults are different.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

VanguardLH

2015-03-21 22:46:57 UTC

That's a good idea. If I can find the program here, I might try this.
The only place I think you can find the program now is on C/Net, and I'd
rather not get it from there.

I tend to get software from softpepdia.com to eliminate the wrapper that
CNet puts on some downloads. The only problem I've run into at
Softpedia is knowing which download link to click as they mix in their
ads with their download buttons with the one for the program you wanted;
however, after using ad blocking, those misleading download buttons
disappeared.

Sometimes at either download.com or softpedia.com they will have a link
to the author's/owner's web site. I go there to get the program
directly from there. Alas, many sites will direct you back to Cnet,
brothersoft, or some other download repository so they don't have to
manage the bandwidth.

Post by VanguardLH
Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program).

As I mentioned to Stormin' Norman, I'm certainly not adverse to
reinstalling Vista, since it' just a learning box for me, I use it for
nothing.

Revo doesn't have you reinstalling Windows. Their database is a
hardcoded list of known registry entries and files for the programs they
know about so they know what to remove. If doing the manual remnant
cleanup of the registry and files is beyond you or you want a quick stab
at the cleanup then Revo Uninstaller might work. They have a free
version you can try. The payware version includes a monitor so it can
see what changes were made to know what to remove later. The freeware
doesn't have the real-time monitor but it still has the database of
hardcoded expertise that might help remove the stubborn program.

Ken Springer

2015-03-22 05:37:41 UTC

That's a good idea. If I can find the program here, I might try this.
The only place I think you can find the program now is on C/Net, and I'd
rather not get it from there.

I tend to get software from softpepdia.com to eliminate the wrapper that
CNet puts on some downloads. The only problem I've run into at
Softpedia is knowing which download link to click as they mix in their
ads with their download buttons with the one for the program you wanted;
however, after using ad blocking, those misleading download buttons
disappeared.
Sometimes at either download.com or softpedia.com they will have a link
to the author's/owner's web site. I go there to get the program
directly from there. Alas, many sites will direct you back to Cnet,
brothersoft, or some other download repository so they don't have to
manage the bandwidth.

Post by VanguardLH
Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program).

As I mentioned to Stormin' Norman, I'm certainly not adverse to
reinstalling Vista, since it' just a learning box for me, I use it for
nothing.

I've always wanted to try Revo, but never had a good reason. Now is as
good a time as any. Won't be for a couple of days, though, durn job is
getting in the way of my playing. LOL

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

VanguardLH

2015-03-22 08:35:10 UTC

Post by Ken Springer
I've always wanted to try Revo, but never had a good reason. Now is as
good a time as any. Won't be for a couple of days, though, durn job is
getting in the way of my playing. LOL

Got any PTO left?

"Hi, boss. I caught the flu from my kids and will be out a day or two."

If you don't have kids [at home] then say your friends brought their
sick kids over. Kids are germ factories on legs spreading the stuff
when they come home from school.

Ken Springer

2015-03-22 13:24:30 UTC

Got any PTO left?

?????????? Would that be Personal Time Off? If so, then no. I've
got a part-time job at Walmart, and their reputation is basically true.

Post by VanguardLH
"Hi, boss. I caught the flu from my kids and will be out a day or two."
If you don't have kids [at home] then say your friends brought their
sick kids over. Kids are germ factories on legs spreading the stuff
when they come home from school.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

VanguardLH

2015-03-22 21:26:09 UTC

Post by Ken Springer
I've always wanted to try Revo, but never had a good reason. Now is
as good a time as any. Won't be for a couple of days, though, durn
job is getting in the way of my playing. LOL

Got any PTO left?

?????????? Would that be Personal Time Off? If so, then no. I've
got a part-time job at Walmart, and their reputation is basically true.

A lot of places for many years now decided to staff using part-time
employees or making sure they work less than the minimum hours that
grants them company benefits (40 hours?). That's why there are so many
part-time jobs. Less cost to the employer.

Ken Springer

2015-03-23 15:10:28 UTC

Post by VanguardLH
Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would

Post by VanguardLH
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program).

As I mentioned to Stormin' Norman, I'm certainly not adverse to
reinstalling Vista, since it' just a learning box for me, I use it for
nothing.

Mother Nature ruined my plans for yesterday morning before going to
work, so gave Revo (free version) a try.

It worked!!! I chose the Advanced button, I wanted everything gone. I
did not use the portable version. Took forever to shut the computer
down and reboot, but it seems to be OK. No extensive use as of yet, but
then there never has been any extensive use of Vista for me. LOL

One thing I found interesting, if you use the Advanced setting, the
program allows you to "clean" the registry of entries relating to the
program being removed. Doing exactly the actions that people don't like
registry cleaners doing. <G>

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

VanguardLH

2015-03-23 21:24:52 UTC

Post by VanguardLH
Revo doesn't have you reinstalling Windows. Their database is a
hardcoded list of known registry entries and files for the programs they
know about so they know what to remove. If doing the manual remnant
cleanup of the registry and files is beyond you or you want a quick stab
at the cleanup then Revo Uninstaller might work. They have a free
version you can try. The payware version includes a monitor so it can
see what changes were made to know what to remove later. The freeware
doesn't have the real-time monitor but it still has the database of
hardcoded expertise that might help remove the stubborn program.

It worked!!! I chose the Advanced button, I wanted everything gone. I
did not use the portable version. Took forever to shut the computer
down and reboot, but it seems to be OK. No extensive use as of yet, but
then there never has been any extensive use of Vista for me. LOL
One thing I found interesting, if you use the Advanced setting, the
program allows you to "clean" the registry of entries relating to the
program being removed. Doing exactly the actions that people don't like
registry cleaners doing. <G>

I haven't needed Revo yet but my understanding of that product is its
registry cleaning would be based on its hardcoded expertise in its
database. So the registry cleanup is focused on the program you want to
remove. This is unlike registry cleaners that look all over the
registry finding irregularities based on the hardcoded expertise in
those registry cleaners. One is focused, the other is shotgun approach.
One looks at entries for a particular program, the other is looking for
irregularities and not specifically for good entries of programs. One
will find entries for a program, the other often only drills down to one
or two levels for a dependency of an entry (e.g., it takes me 2 runs of
CCleaner: one to find the top-level non-dependent entries and another to
find the dependent entries now stripped of their parent entries).

I doubt the registry cleanup in Revo Uninstaller operates at the same
level (catch anything) of registry cleaners. That's why Revo should be
safer. Registry cleaners would find a lot more than just the entries
for the program you wanted to remove and as such are dangerous when used
by those ignorant of what entries are for and their interdependencies.
With registry cleaners, if you don't know then don't touch.

Again, I haven't use Revo (only know of others that used it) but I'm
guessing their registry cleaner is focused on the unwanted program based
on what they put in their database. Well, I hope that is what Revo does
to determine which registry entries to delete. I sure wouldn't want it
to act like other registry cleaners that wander all over the registry
rather than focus on known registry entries for a particular program.

Ken Springer

2015-03-23 18:06:03 UTC

Post by VanguardLH
Another option is to see if the free version of Revo Uninstaller would

Post by VanguardLH
get rid of the program (if they included it in their database included
with the program).

As I mentioned to Stormin' Norman, I'm certainly not adverse to
reinstalling Vista, since it' just a learning box for me, I use it for
nothing.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 36.0.4
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Zaidy036

2015-03-20 21:40:04 UTC

Unlocker http://filehippo.com/download_unlocker

Take Ownership

http://www.faqforge.com/windows/take-ownership-of-a-file-or-folder-by-command-in-windows/

Ken Springer

2015-03-22 05:39:10 UTC

Post by Zaidy036

Unlocker http://filehippo.com/download_unlocker
Take Ownership
http://www.faqforge.com/windows/take-ownership-of-a-file-or-folder-by-command-in-windows/

Both are on the list to try.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

Keith Nuttle

2015-03-20 21:58:09 UTC

What is the extension the program that will not be deleted?

It has been years since I worked with dBase, but the dBase program had
an extension of *.prg. They would not be installed in the windows
sense. They would just be available to the runtime dBase runtime engine
or to the dBase system.

If so then it could be deleted, and have no effect on the OS.

Ken Springer

2015-03-22 05:41:32 UTC

Post by Keith Nuttle

What is the extension the program that will not be deleted?
It has been years since I worked with dBase, but the dBase program had
an extension of *.prg. They would not be installed in the windows
sense. They would just be available to the runtime dBase runtime engine
or to the dBase system.
If so then it could be deleted, and have no effect on the OS.

The runtime engine I finally got rid of, although it took a couple of
tries before it went past a 64 bit windows message.

--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.8.5
Firefox 33.1
Thunderbird 31.5
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"

jim

2015-03-21 08:11:47 UTC